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Topics this week:

• Veterans are increasingly exploring psychedelic treatments in Mexico for trauma and brain injuries, raising medical, ethical, and spiritual questions.
• Syrian Christians face uncertainty and displacement following the rise of Islamist-led groups after the fall of Bashar al-Assad.
• Over 1 million children in Nigeria are forced into hazardous lithium mining, sacrificing education and health for survival.
• Listener question: balancing faith with worldly pressures.
• Listener question: insights on identity, morality, and how to live out gospel values in a broken world.

Episode Transcript

Sean: Veterans are increasingly turning to psychedelics for brain injury and other symptoms of depression. With the Islamic rebellion in Syria, which ousted Assad, Syrian Christians are deeply concerned of their faith, whether it will be tolerated in the new regime. Over 1 million children in Nigeria are being used to mine lithium and thus denied education and health protection. These are the stories we'll discuss and we will also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell.

Scott: I'm your co-host, Scott Rae.

Sean: This is the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, 911������ University. Scott, I sent you this article from the New York Times in part because in seven years plus of doing this podcast, we have never talked about psychedelics. And for quite a few reasons, one reason being the medical issues we'll get in today, but another reason is there's a lot of writers talking about how the loss of meaning in our culture, people are turning to psychedelics for spiritual motivation as well. Now, this article leans in more specifically on veterans who are seeking relief from brain injury and other kind of forms of trauma. And it tells a story of quite a few US special operations veterans crossing into Mexico over a period of 48 hours. And their plan is to swallow a psychedelic extract from the bark of a West African shrub, fall into a void of dark hallucinations, and then have their consciousness shattered by smoking the poison of a desert toad. Now, just on its surface, that sounds obviously a little crazy, but let's keep going. The objective was to find what they had so far been unable to locate anywhere else, relief from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury symptoms. Now, one of this Army Green Beret who wanted to remain unnamed says, "It sounds a little extreme, but I've tried everything else and it didn't work." So one in particular talks about just surviving from explosions and other trauma in war. He was on the verge of divorce, recently put a gun to his head. He said, "I don't know if this will work, but I have nothing to lose." So a piece of this story, Scott, is just the desperation of some of these veterans. Now, we don't know how many seek this help in Mexico, but I guess the Department of Veterans Affairs is announcing that they're starting to fund research into this psychedelic therapy. Now, the way they describe it is psychedelics, clinics typically administer ibogaine in a single dose followed the next day by this dose of poison of the Sonoran Desert Toad. It's a short-acting psychedelic that tends to give users an overwhelming feeling of spiritual connection and it's even nicknamed, interestingly enough, Scott, the God Molecule. Now, they talk about this, a number of Navy SEALs have been interested and involved with ibogaine, but it's important to realize this article points out that it remains a Schedule One substance, so it's illegal in the US. I guess there was a push in the 80s and the 90s to legalize ibogaine for addiction, treatment, and treatment in the US, but it founded over safety concerns tied to dangerous heart arrhythmia. There's some stories, you know, I won't go into where people talk about how it saved their marriage, how he was able to save his business and kind of save his life. It's kind of presented as the wonder drug here a little bit. They show some people experiencing this kind of trip and they said it's not known for being pleasant. It's like in space, light and sound all splinter and reality abandons the user for hours and it makes many people feel physically ill. Now, there's one study out of Stanford that tracked 30 veterans who went through the treatment. It found that symptoms of depression and PTSD dropped by nearly 90% and remained lower a month later. And of course, the question is, is this going to last? That's what they're asking in this article. I would love your biblical and ethical take on kind of psychedelics as a whole. Do we make a distinction between medical practice, non-medical practice? What do you think, Scott?

Scott: Well, let's just say, first of all, I don't want these to be available over the counter.

Sean: Okay.

Scott: To be sure, this has to be done under strict medical supervision, if at all, which in Mexico is the way it's actually being done. And for a second, my heart goes out to these veterans who they have tried everything and their lives are falling apart due to PTSD that either has gone untreated or not adequately treated in the past. And it may be that we just don't have the ability yet through psychotherapy, through counseling, through other legal methods in the US to adequately treat many of the symptoms that they are experiencing. So I mean, you're right, I think to point out it's still considered a schedule one substance. That's why it's illegal in the United States. And it has serious side effects. The heart arrhythmia that resulted from it back in the 60s and 70s when it was used for drug addiction, those are real. Now that they have licensed cardiologists who are supervising the treatments that are being done in these centers in Mexico. So my guess is that many of the veterans, they actually risk court martial if they are currently serving and they go to Mexico for these treatments. But I suspect that many of them don't care about that because they are so desperate as you rightly point out. I'm curious about the spiritual connection. The article did not define that very clearly. So that could mean just about anything. And so I'm a little skeptical about that unless it's more clearly defined. What exactly do you mean by that? I think calling it the God pill is, I think I'm not so sure about that part. So here I would consider this, and I'll just throw this out to you. I've been thinking about this since you sent this story to me. It's parallel I think to perhaps the way we use medical marijuana today. To treat a medical condition does have some problematic side effects. And one of those side effects would be of course the number of adolescents who obtain medical marijuana cards from cooperating medical facilities that have no need other than just they want to smoke pot and get high. So the abuse of that has been obvious and well documented. But for those that have, say they're undergoing chemotherapy for cancer and medical marijuana can be very effective in providing relief from the nausea that comes from those chemotherapy treatments. So the intent here ethically is to treat a medical condition. But there are unanticipated and unintended side effects of an otherwise moral action. We refer to this technically as the law of double effect. And our Catholic brothers and sisters have done us I think a helpful favor in clarifying this that just because there are unintended but anticipated side effects of an otherwise moral action where your intent is entirely moral, those side effects don't nullify the morality of the original act. So I think people have raised a lot of questions about that. But I think in general it's a pretty sound way of viewing some of the ethical dilemmas that we face in a fallen broken world. Because there are lots of things that we're involved in, lots of things that we do are mixed. Their intention can be good, but in a fallen world they can have side effects that are somewhat problematic. And just because there are problematic side effects doesn't necessarily though it could, doesn't necessarily undermine the morality of the act that we are intending. And I think the psychedelics can function in much the same way. Although the side effects are anticipated, they're unintended, they're much more significant with psychedelics. And so I think one of the ethical guardrails that has to be on this is that it has to be properly supervised by licensed, trained medical personnel who can deal with some of those side effects as they come up. So I think there's a way to think about this. I think the law of double effect has some support theologically. I think it makes good theological sense. So that's my original thought about it. I'm open to hearing some pushback on that if needed. But that's my initial thought. I think there is a way I think to see this as justifiable if it's done under carefully controlled conditions where all the side effects that are anticipated can be planned for and dealt with.

Sean: So a couple thoughts. So biblically speaking, human beings are body and soul. So sometimes I've heard Christians criticize the use of any kind of drugs, even Tylenol. It's a lack of faith because these are all spiritual issues. I think that's just a narrow-sighted view of medicine where body and soul and things like depression can have a mental immaterial and a physical material component. So I think that's a starting point biblically as we look at this. Now I had also thought, Scott, although we hadn't talked about this beforehand about the connection with marijuana, and two things came to my mind. One was part of the push for legalized marijuana was to say, well, we just want it for medical use, not for other use. And early on, I thought this is the camel's nose in the tent, so to speak. It's to get it legalized medically and then it will become legalized in the rest of the country. And what's interesting about that is that maybe not just the New York Times, but so many on the left, you could say, have praised all the positives of marijuana. And then you and I talked about not long ago, New York Times coming out saying, wait a minute, there's massive studies here. Maybe this was short-sighted. It's having damaging effect on society. So I don't know how we keep in balance saying there might be a medical use for this with without opening up the floodgates, so to speak, for it to become more widely common and damaging like marijuana and given some of the side effects about psychedelics, maybe even more so. Your thoughts on that connection?

Scott: Well, I think there's no doubt that there will be a black market for this as long as it's considered illegal in the countries where it is. And enforcing that, I think, may end up putting us back into a losing drug war that we've been conducting for some time. However, I think the good that this is doing, I think, to help these veterans who really have no other place to go, I mean, they're at the end of their rope and they're on their last resort. And the reason this is helpful for them is the psychedelic actually affects their brain chemistry in ways that are actually very helpful to them and seem to be longer lasting than we originally thought. Now, I think a couple of things on this. One is, do we want to open the door to more widespread use of this? And do we want to create a black market for this, which I think will be very challenging to enforce and could have devastating consequences for people who use them without being in the proper clinical setting? I think that's a fair concern. I suspect that the veterans who are seeing their lives turn around by these effective treatments would say that's a risk that they're willing to take. And so I think as long as it can be restricted to really carefully controlled clinical settings, like we do other medications that are not available over the counter, then I think there's still room, I think, to do this in these carefully controlled settings. Now, whether it can be restricted to that, I think that's a fair and open question. The jury on that one is just being assembled. So I think that's a fair concern. The difference is, I think you will find the demand for these psychedelics because the risks are so significant. The demand for this in terms of recreational use, like there is for recreational marijuana, will be a far different story. Now, I'm open to being wrong about that, but anything that's going to give you a heart arrhythmia unless it's properly managed, that's something I think a lot of people, they don't think twice about doing that for recreational use. Now, there may be some folks who will do that experimentally just to see what it's like, but I think that the consequences being so severe if they're not properly managed, I think put it in a vastly different category than medical marijuana. So I may be a little more optimistic that it can be controlled because of the risks that are undertaken if not properly managed.

Sean: Interesting. One last thought on this. I think you and I need to do a deep dive on this and just go, I think our listeners are going to have some more interest in this. There's the physical concern, like you stated, heart arrhythmia, but there's also the spiritual concern. And I think of Rod Dreher, for example, New York Times bestselling author, he's Greek orthodox, and part of his coming to faith was through experimenting with LSD. And he said, "I always hesitated to mention that because I don't want to encourage people to use it." And yet he's come out incredibly critical of psychedelics and say in our increasingly secular culture, there's a yearning for something spiritual, and this is filling a void that people have, which of course is a separate issue than what we're talking about with the veterans, although there may be some overlap in some fashion. And he says something really interesting in his recent book. He says, "The research brings welcome hope to people who are living in psychological torment. Yet it's also the case that the recreational use of psychedelic drugs by seekers who want to have a magical transcendent experience is growing. This is frightening, not because psychedelics don't work to produce an experience of enchantment with the supernatural, but because they do." And an interesting point he draws out is that the kind of dramatic experiences that people report of other worldly beings and kind of darkness are common across people who have them. And he suggests that tells us there's an objective basis behind this. And so I just would cite, even though we can't go into much more depth, he has a quote here in his book, he says, "These drugs can bring you into contact with spiritual reality, but in a manner rife with misinterpretation, ego inflation, disguised as humility, confirmation bias or more openly demonic forms of description." I think those are very, very real concerns that we need to take alongside the physical concerns. And it feels like we're at the beginning of this with minimal real research jumping in the dark. I just don't want five, 10, 20 years later to look back like we have with marijuana and said, "Oops, we opened the floodgates." That's it. Much more could be said, but should we move on to the next story?

Scott: Next one.

Sean: All right. Now this is a story, Scott, that both you and I independently wanted to discuss because it was so much in the news this week. The piece we're discussing was in the Wall Street Journal, and it's talking about how Syria's ancient Christian community. And by ancient, we mean going back basically to the apostle Paul in the first century in the thirties, and Christians have been there ever since, was profoundly disrupted by the toppling of the Alawi Shiite former president Bashar al-Assad, who's fled to Moscow or at least been taken to Moscow. There's anxiety about what comes next under the rule of the Islamist-led groups who have taken power in the country. Now according to this piece, the Wall Street Journal, during decades, and by the way, his family ruled about five decades, Christians and Muslims lived side by side with minimal friction until a civil war broke out in 2011, and about two-thirds of Syrian Christians have since fled the country. And some of that fleeing is just because of economic challenges as well. Now the rebels, which we'll get to in a minute, who have overthrown, one of the shocking parts of the story is just how quickly they marched through Aleppo and city by city and just took over Syria, was kind of remarkable militarily speaking. They tried to reassure religious and ethnic minorities, in particular Christians, that they'll have full rights and equality with the Muslim majority. Now one thing I wasn't quite aware of, Scott, is how diverse the Christian community is within Syria. Now there's estimates it's between 200,000 and 600,000 Christians remain in Syria, but we're talking about Syrian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, in one neighborhood rebels, when they conquered Aleppo, they distributed bread and children's gifts in Christian neighborhoods, telling residents they had nothing to fear, but that didn't quite assure Christians there that this is the case. And there's a couple of quotes in this I won't go into, but essentially kind of feels like we're in a little bit of a honeymoon phase there, where promises are being made, but what's going to happen over time is just deeply unsettling for the Christians. Now last point here, so people know the group is called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham and the leading group and it's a former al-Qaeda affiliate. So this is labeled by European Union, United Nations, and the US as a designated as a terrorist group. That's what they're designated as. Now they promise to take care of religious schools and forbid discrimination, but the question is, is this going to happen or not? I've got some thoughts on this one, but I'm really curious your take.

Scott: Well this, you know, anytime we talk about persecuted Christians around the world, this hits home because my wife works for an organization that advocates for the persecuted church, particularly in parts of the Middle East. And I don't know for sure, but I suspect they have boots on the ground in Syria serving the persecuted church, encouraging them to stay in the midst of what could be some very difficult times. John, I see this as a continuation of the Arab phenomena we call the Arab Spring.

Sean: Oh?

Scott: It started about 10 or 12 years ago with the toppling of the Egyptian President Hazni Mubarak. And what we learned pretty quickly is that even though dictators were being deposed in several places throughout the Middle East, it soon became what I think, what came to be known the anti-Christian Spring. And Christian communities throughout the Middle East in the midst of the Arab Spring found themselves under intense persecution and pressure to leave, and many of them did. I remember traveling to the West Bank in Israel 20 years ago and in Bethlehem and places in the West Bank where there were thriving Christian communities and they're basically gone today. And that scene's been repeated over and over and over again throughout the Muslim world. And Iraq is, I think, is another good example of this, a thriving Christian community that lived peaceably, granted, under the harsh dictatorial rule of Saddam Hussein…

Sean: Right.

Scott: …but essentially lived peacefully coexisted with Muslim communities in Iraq. And once the dictator was gone and the radical Islamists took over, there's quite a track record of that becoming very bad news for Christian communities. And most of them, in fact, I'd say that the percentage in Syria has dropped dramatically, even though the numbers are still half a million or so. But in many parts of the Muslim world, the numbers themselves have shrunk to just a fraction of what was there before. And it's even worse for the Jewish communities. So the number of Jews that for many, many years lived peaceably in parts of the Muslim world. Now, those Jewish communities, those are virtually unheard of in the Muslim world. So I think maybe to give one biblical example, a metaphor for this, this could be an example. I think this is what the Christian communities are afraid of, is an example where Jesus described with you sweep out one devil and seven more come in its place. That we got rid of Bashir al-Assad, who was a successor to his father, who ruled Syria with an iron fist for decades. And his son took up the mantle quite faithfully. And most people I think are glad to be rid of Assad. But you just, an Al-Qaeda affiliate radical Islamist group by their own designation and definition. I say the Christian community there is right to be nervous about what's coming, maybe not in the short run, but in the longer run. In many places throughout the Muslim world, Christian communities are treated as second class citizens and they're forced to pay punitive taxes. They're denied jobs, they're denied housing, they experience various forms of discrimination. And I think part of the reason that I think some of these Christian communities may be especially nervous is because some of them historically have sided or have felt more allegiance with the current regime before it was out the Assad regime. And many of them actually served in the Assad regime in government. And so it's not hard to imagine how the radicals could see them as part of the problem, not part of the solution. So I would say here, in fact, I think you can make an argument that this may be similar to Iraq, that though there were a lot of things that were awful about the reign of Saddam Hussein and also about the reign of Bashar al-Assad in Syria, but I think you can make an argument that it was better for the Christian community in Iraq under Saddam Hussein than it's been under ISIS. In fact, I don't think there's a lot of debate about that. And I suspect there's precedent, I think, for seeing the same thing happen in Syria. My hope is that it's not, my prayer is that it's not, but that would not be a big surprise if it went sort of the same route as Iraq did after Saddam Hussein was deposed.

Sean: By the way, that was a great biblical connection. One demon out, seven more coming in. Nice connection there, Scott. Way to think biblically. I love it. And I agree 100% on that. I had not thought about Iraq, but Turkey. And the reason I thought about Turkey is because Turkey, obviously north of Syria, which is north of Israel, is not Shiite like Assad was, but Sunni and is moving into Syria and could use that as pressure against Israel. So one of the primary influences now in Syria is Turkey. Now the population of Turkey is in the 80 million, some say 84 million. Early part of the 20th century, there was three to four million Christians. Now there's a few hundred thousand and it's like 0.03 to 0.05% of the population. And so that, I mean, that's just harrowing. When you look at the land of Syria, the land of Turkey, these are deep biblical lands that have Christians and Jews there going long back before Muslims were there or around being run out of this territory. That's really, it's heartbreaking and it's devastating to see and wonder apart from a miracle how that could ever really be reversed. Now I think this Wall Street Journal article gave the appearance of like, well, we're cautiously hopeful here. I just don't share that cautious optimism. I read this kind of update daily called the Gate Stone Institute and they're much more concerned about this. And they cited in 2022 the US Commission on International Religious Freedom said, quote, “Regarding hearings on religious freedom in Syria, the Al Qaeda offshoot, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham,” which again is the group taking over in Syria, “continues to brutalize and displace religious minority communities in the Northwestern region of Idlib and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria,” ISIS, “has increased its presence in Eastern Syria, waging almost daily attacks and destabilized the region for religious minorities. Opposition groups leverage their Turkish financing and military support to wage campaigns of religious and ethnic cleansing in Afrin,” which is the area. Now I've listened to a few interviews on this and some people on the ground say, we've got to be really skeptical of anything we see on social media.

Scott: Hear, hear.

Sean: And I think that's true for anything, but also true for here. But there's a father, Michael Noman, one of the most well-known priests in Homs. He shared a troubling incident on Facebook where a group of Muslims attacked Christian farmers in a Christian village. The Christians were abused, beaten, and accused of being infidels. He said, this is what we are facing right now as Christians in Syria and gave a few other examples of this. So my heart is broken about this. We have millennia-old Christian community in Syria. This is their home. This is where they've been. And my prayers are that the early signs that maybe a miracle would happen, what does it really take, Scott, for a fundamentalist, radical ISIS-type group to say, we're going to create a civilization in which religious liberty is respected? That takes a miracle in some ways, I think, for that to happen. That's a miracle that I'm praying for in Syria.

Scott: Well, me too. And the reason it will take a miracle, Sean, is because Islamic theology does not support the notion of religious freedom. In their view, anything else besides Muslim theology is an error. In their view, to quote a well-known cleric, error has no rights. And so I think the way we would defend religious liberty, biblically and theologically, is under a broader, I think, right of conscience, and that the grace of God does not force itself on anyone. And so that vision of Jesus standing at the door and knocking in Revelation 3:20, that handles on the inside. And it's up to the individual to open the door to any kind of religious commitment, if it's to be free and meaningful and rigorous. So I think there's good reason to think that religious freedom has good, solid theological grounds. It's just I don't see them in Muslim theology.

Sean: Agreed. Well said. Now, as we shift to this third story, I'm reminded of when I give a talk on why God allows evil. One of the things I tell people, I say is I'll just open up an app for a news organization like USA Today and New York Times, whatever, and just read stories and they testify that the world is profoundly broken. I understand that if it bleeds, it leads, but just look at the stories and it just reveals how broken the world is. This next story does that. And it kind of hit me that we have three heavier than usual stories that just testify to the brokenness in the world. You sent me this story from AP News and the title is basically, "Nigeria's Lithium Boom, Many Mines Are Illegal and Children Do Much of the Work." So AP went in to investigate this firsthand and report on it. And they estimate, based on international label organization, that more than one million children work in mines and quarries worldwide. And this is particularly acute in Africa where there's poverty, limited access to education, weak regulation, corruption. Children are working in these mines, work long hours, unsafe conditions, crushing, sorting rocks, carrying heavy loads of ore and exposing themselves to toxic dust that can cause respiratory problems and asthma. And part of this is there's a growing demand for lithium, which has created a new frontier for mining in mineral rich countries like Nigeria. But it's come at its steep cost, according to this article, is that it's exploiting the poorest and most vulnerable, namely children. Now this twist I did not really, this didn't surprise me, Scott, is that their work often provides material for Chinese businesses that dominate Nigeria's laxly regulated extractive industry and are often behind this pushing for the kind of exploitation that we're seeing with kids. Now, one Chinese embassy in Abuja said that Chinese mining companies in Nigeria operate in line with local laws and regulations. I'm profoundly skeptical of that, but we'll keep going. This article says some of the mining methods like miners use chisels and heavy hammers to break through rocks. They descend several feet into dark pits and some of these are six, seven, eight, 10 year old kids. And some old but still viable mines, they crawl through narrow passages, snaking between unstable mud walls before digging. Sometimes dynamite is used. AP went in firsthand and saw people in tunnels where they could easily suffocate. Working early mornings to late evenings, a child will typically make the equivalent of $2.42 a day, just enough to cover meals at the children's home. So they're quite literally working just to survive. And according to this article, one schoolmaster, they quote, it says, "I used to have up to 300 pupils in class, but attendance now is poor because of mining." So this is a devastating story. It ends with a mom who has a six year old. When I think about my hopes for my kids, this is not one of them, Scott. She said, "I still want her to go to school, have a better life, work in an office, not a mine forever. I've never had that fear with my kids." And yet there's hundreds of thousands of families in Nigeria who have that concern because it's a reality for them. I want to know your take on this, but also why all the stories we could discuss, this is the one you thought was most important.

Scott: Well, let me just start with this, Sean. I think you began to point out that there are a number of big problems here. And one big problem is that these kids should be in school because we know from a long track record of development in the developing world is that education is crucial to people lifting themselves up out of poverty. And so by these kids working in the mines instead of being in school, they are mortgaging their future for short term gain here, short term survival. Second, it's another big problem that the mines are illegal and therefore operating outside of any kind of government scrutiny that would enforce regulations about safety and risks. It's a bigger problem if the kids are actually being conscripted to work in the mines. And if they have no choice or if they can't quit their jobs, there's no indication that that's actually taking place. But I think in many cases, the financial strain that these families are under acts as a coercive force because they really have no choice if they want to survive. It's also a big problem that the risk they're being exposed to for their life and health. We don't have any records about how many kids have actually been killed in these mines, but the health risks are very real. So there are a bunch of big problems for this. So even if the mines were legal and even if the safety risks were addressed and it was safe for kids to be working, the bigger question, Sean, that emerges out of this is should children be working at these ages at all, especially if it undermines their right to an education? And I'm very sympathetic with these families who they're trying to figure out where their next meals are coming from for their kids. And it's all hands on deck all the time to bring in as much income as they can. And granted, I think these kids are being exploited by the wages that they're being paid. But I understand the families, they're in this desperate survival mode. And if they want to eat, all the kids have to work. And so I'm sympathetic to the bind that these families are in. And I wonder, what is it about childhood and working that we have this sort of gut instinct that kids shouldn't be doing? Because I think we have this view of something like what I would call the innocence of childhood that needs to be maintained. But we've talked to our undergrad students, we have a lot of undergrad students here who they grew up on farms or on ranches. They were working from the time they were five, six years old. They were working under the supervision of their parents, but working nonetheless. And they recognized that their childhood was not just all fun and games and play. They had jobs to do. And we asked them about, what about this idea of the innocence of childhood? They sort of laughed at us when we talked about this. They said, there was no innocence in my childhood. We went to work on the farm as soon as we could. And I, Sean, I worked in my dad's, my dad ran his own company. I worked in his printing plant, probably from age 11 on, sweeping floors. I did some jobs that, I got my fingers caught in some of the machinery. And I mean, no lasting harm, but I ran printing presses and operated machinery that had risks involved. I got my fingers caught in printing presses more times than I can count. In fact, I spent one summer, my dad's company got the contract when Exxon, the brand Exxon was created in the 70s. And they united all of their other brands under that one common name of Exxon. And I printed seven to seven, seven days a week, all summer long.

Sean: Wow.

Scott: The very same thing. And it basically was the sign said Exxon Plus, Exxon Unleaded, Exxon Extra, all those things that went on gas stations all over the world came out of that little printing plant. And I think my mom was tempted to divorce my dad because of the hours that I was working. But at the end of that summer, I had more money than I knew what to do with. And I think I made a good choice that I couldn't have made today in California under child labor laws. And I think I learned a lot of life lessons just working for people. Now granted, it was my dad's company, it was under his supervision. So I was not going to be abused or exploited. I realized that's totally different than with these kids. But I just, you know, I want to make sure that we can, we don't throw the baby out with the bath water here. And I think that I have great compassion for these families for whom it's, you know, everybody, everybody's got to work and contribute if we're going to eat tomorrow.

Sean: Some good reflection, Scott. I had no idea about that, about you growing up working when you were a kid. Learn something new eight years into doing this, even though we've been friends a lot longer than that. That's fascinating. Biblically, I've got a few questions on this. Number one, I think about, you know, there's conversations in the US right now about the effects of COVID and the lockdowns, how that will shape this generation for decades to come. Well, that's a drop in the bucket compared to working in minds physically and emotionally for your childhood and not being able to go to school at all. So I think about, you know, in the Old Testament, this is a complex question, but in Exodus 20 and 34, when it talks about kind of generational curses and how God will visit the iniquity, the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations, that is unique to the theocracy and the relationship God had with Israel. But I think some of those kinds of teachings are actually just descriptive, that the sins that we experience, we tend to pass on to the next generation. There's something built into it that way. So I'm looking at going, there's a million children in Nigeria who are mistreated this way. What does that mean for future generations? That's only going to echo further if it's not addressed in a radical fashion. Now, if China is behind this in the way it's described, what's driving it? A lot of that is a Marxist ideology that has the ends justify the means. Humans have value basically, insofar as they contribute to economic growth. Humans and children don't have intrinsic worth. And so human rights is secondary. We've seen that with the Uyghurs, we've seen that with Christians at times in China, and we see that here in Nigeria. I'm not saying Chinese people are bad. If anybody hears that, they're completely mishearing me. But the ideology behind Marxism, there's a willingness to sacrifice human good. And like you said, even the good of children, I mean, that's even crossing a further line. How opposite is that of Jesus who said, "Let the little children come to me," and has value for them and talks about putting, rather than violating a child, having a millstone thrown over your neck, thrown in the ocean? How radically different this Marxist worldview is that drives this kind of behavior than a Christian worldview should treat children. Devastating story. Go ahead.

Scott: Yeah, I think to go a little further with that, we have to recognize these kids are human beings made in the image of God with intrinsic dignity, which precludes their being exploited simply for greed and profit on the Chinese companies. And the ironic thing is that the Marxist worldview that you suggest actually would put great weight on the interests of the poor and the vulnerable, as opposed to the interests of the business owners. If they're really consistent with that Marxist worldview, they would take a much different view toward the people that they were exploiting. And I think the scripture is really clear that we have extra significant obligations toward those who are the least among us and the most vulnerable among us. And certainly children in the developing world fit that description maybe better than any other group that I can think of. And so I think that the dangers involved in treating these children as simply pawns or means to an end, I think violates the biblical standard of treating them as though intrinsically valuable by virtue of made in God's image and taking a special caution to protect them from being abused because of their vulnerability.

Sean: And I think if somebody says, well, I'm not a Christian, but I still oppose the treatment of children this way. I want to say, where does that worldview come from?

Scott: Right. On what basis?

Sean: According to Tom Holland in Dominion, these are Christian ideas that enable us to push back on this. So alright, let's take some questions. As always, some very thoughtful questions. This one's kind of a 30,000 foot view, just big question. The person says, "In today's fast paced world, many Christians rest with a tension between living the gospel and pursuing worldly success. Really the question is it's easy to lose sight of kingdom values amidst these pressures. What advice do we have for those who want to be authentic witnesses to the power of the gospel, especially as we try to resist cultural temptations towards love of money, success and an unhealthy thirst for power?” What's your encouragement, Scott?

Scott: Well, I think to resist the temptation of love of money, God has authorized regular sacrificial giving in order to do that. The reason God commands that we give is not because he needs our giving, it's because we need our giving to break the power of money in our lives. And every time you give toward something that supports the gospel ministry or supports the poor in your community, you are doing something counter-cultural and resisting the love of money. So that'd be one. The second would be the success at any cost. I think you have to recognize that you have competing interests such as your family, such as the ethical guardrails that you're on. And I think the reality of this is that in the short run, I think you make a good argument that integrity doesn't pay. But in the long run, that's a much harder case to make. Think about it, in the short run, if integrity paid, then everybody would do it, right? Which is clearly not true. But in the long run, I think you can make a much better case for that because integrity builds trust and trustworthiness. And those are essential components to success in any kind of business. Think about who would you rather hire, Sean, somebody whose life is characterized by the fruit of the spirit or somebody whose life is characterized by the deeds of the flesh? That's not even close, in my view. And so I think there's actually, I think, success in the marketplace actually, I think, both requires and nurtures a certain set of virtues that are actually quite consistent with the fruit of the spirit. I'm saying unhealthy thirst for power. God is the one who is sovereign, you're not. And if you haven't learned that by now, you're probably in for some painful lessons along the way.

Sean: You know, it's interesting, the first thing you said was a Christian practice of giving. In a sense, the way we resist the temptations of the world is right theology and understanding and right practice. It's both. That's why the spiritual disciplines matter so much. So we have to shift our thinking. So for example, when it says avoiding success at any cost, to me, the question is not just to avoid success, but to reframe how we define success. What is the successful life? And I've quoted him probably a thousand times when I can't remember if it was you and I together or just me interviewing Os Guinness. And I'm like, what's your legacy? And he said, “Basically, legacy is a secular idea. All that matters is God says, well done, my good and faithful servant.” And that helped me reframe more biblically what is meant by success rather than the idea of the world. So the spiritual disciplines, fasting and prayer, going to church, being a part of a Christian community, choosing to live this out and continuing to think biblically and to sacrifice, these are our best defense from the world. Last thing I would say is the fact that this person asked that question tells me their heart's in the right place.

Scott: Hear, hear.

Sean: We're going to wrestle with this. I mean, my wife and I, we're at club with my son. We looked at each other, club basketball, like, okay, are we spending too much time and money on this? And we just had a deep conversation about the kind of issue that's being raised here. So it's a process, not a destination. Always go back to scripture, always go back and just take it a day at a time is my encouragement. Now let's jump ahead to a really interesting question. We're going to do a full show on this, but someone says they've been listening to our podcast for a while and enjoy it. Awesome. And the individual says, “'m completely blind and have been reading about disability theology, which by the way is an entire subfield of theology in which there's books and articles and et cetera. There are some aspects I don't have a problem with such that disabled people don't all want physical healing, but there's some that are more problematic such as some believe Jesus was blind or autistic, that his scars from the cross are a disability. Others said that people will keep their disabilities in heaven. Some take it even further into kind of a critical theory mood and accuse the church of ableism or advise the Bible should be changed to be more sympathetic to disabled people. I don't think disability theology is very biblical and is wondering your thoughts about it.”

Scott: Well, let me weigh in here first and then I'm interested to hear your thoughts too. I am aware of a whole range of versions of disability theology, some of which are very sound theologically. One of my favorite grad students from our philosophy program is profoundly disabled, in a wheelchair has been for some time and he's written on this and he is a very eloquent spokesperson for the disabled from the perspective that they are creating the image of God. I think what this listener Sean seems to me maybe reading is what I would call maybe a more woke version of disability theology that's rooted in postmodernism and critical theory, that worldview, because that certainly is out there too. I've been watching there's a series of commercials that are going on about celebrating the journey of the disabled person. One of the things they say is I'm not the same person without my disability. I've heard a noted theologian say similar to what this listener described that we will still have our disabilities in the kingdom when it comes when the Lord returns because if without those they would be different people. It raises a really important question that we're going to dive into in a lot more detail, but just to raise it now, if that's true, then what grounds our identity as a person? Is it the physical characteristics? Because that seems to be the worldview of philosophical naturalism and physicalism that says we are nothing more than a collection of our parts and properties. But we know theologically we are much more than that. We have an immaterial soul as well that governs our ability to remain the same person as our bodily parts go through time and change. I so appreciate the question on this. He's raised some really important biblical and philosophical questions that I'm looking forward to attacking more in depth in a more full episode of this. Your thoughts?

Sean: Scott, I got to say, man, you brought your A game today. I think bringing it to identity is just good and insightful and gets right to the heart of it. One thing I would maybe add to that larger question, when we talk about identity, there is teleology and purpose built into the world. So while some people are born blind, hence John chapter nine, the eyes are made by God to see. That's a part of functioning according to the way God made us to be, arguably before sin. So when somebody comes up with a kind of identity that ignores the teleology, I think we're running up against a biblical understanding, especially when it includes natural law. Now I want to have as much sympathy as I can for people. I think it's interesting in this email, rather than saying people with disabilities, this individual who is blind specifically said disabled people. So it's interesting to see his use of language when a lot of people would say we shouldn't use the language that way when somebody who is totally blind is comfortable using that kind of language. I want to have as much understanding and compassion as I can for people who have just different disabilities for sure. They may see things in the world and operate in a certain way that I don't. We've got to go back to identity like you said, body and soul, and God's designed for who we are. Now this answer when he said, “Should the Bible be changed to be more sympathetic to disabled people?” That's the easiest question we've ever been asked on this. And the answer is no, no chance we should. Now I guess the last point that I'll make is will we have disabilities in heaven? I think it's a stretch to use the scars of Jesus when he's a unique example. And those scars were a part of him being the crucified savior to say therefore, because I'm colorblind and I am, I'll be colorblind in heaven. I sure hope not. I want to see colors for all that God intended and designed them to be. And so I suspect if we want to keep our disabilities in heaven, what we have to do is get our desires more in line with what heaven will be like and God's designed for us, even though I realize that's easier said than done. Scott, we're going to do a full episode on that. I'm looking forward to it. That's also one like psychedelics that's long overdue.

Scott: Hear, hear.

Sean: Good discussion today, my friend. Well, I'm looking forward to next week already. We're taking two weeks off over Christmas to take a break and then relaunch not the first week, I think January 2nd or 3rd, but the week after to refresh and to relax. And then we're going to come in full speed in 2025 and bring you the Think Biblically that you know and you love. This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at 911������ University. We have master's programs. We would love to have you join us in spiritual formation, theology, Bible, New Testament, Old Testament, marriage and family, online and in person. Please keep your comments and questions coming. We've toyed with the idea of doing a full episode just on answering your questions because we missed so many. If you think that's a good idea, let us know and we'll take a look at that. Would be wonderful. You can email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. Please take the time. If you'd give us a Christmas gift, that Christmas gift would just be giving us a rating on your podcast app. I would humbly ask you if you benefit from this podcast, a simple, honest review. Every single one really helps. It'll take you two to three minutes and share this episode or another with a friend if it's helpful. We appreciate and are honored that you listen and we'll see you Tuesday when Scott and I are going to do a deep dive on the new massive book by Jordan Peterson called We Who Wrestle with God. We'll see you then. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything.