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What should apologetics look like for this generation? What does it mean that apologetics is for everyone, not just specialists? How is the gospel good news, especially for women? We’ll discuss these questions and more with Sean around his new book .

Episode Transcript

Scott: What should apologetics look like for this current generation? What does it mean that apologetics is for everyone and not just for specialists? And how is the gospel good news, especially for women? We'll discuss these questions and a whole lot more around a new book that Sean has edited, entitled Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture. I'm your host, today Sean’s my guest. So great to have the book out, such a good volume, lots of really good contributors. This is a book you edited and contributed a bit to as well, but how did you decide which topics and which authors to use?

Sean: It was two things. Number one, what issues did we need to cover? And there's certain timeless issues, like Jesus, for example, that we're going to talk about.

Scott: That's kind of important.

Sean: Got to include that in our cultural moment. But then there's certain new issues that arise that people are trying to figure out. How do I engage my neighbor on this? How do I think Christianly about this? And then the other thing, it was like, what challenges and tasks do we have in defending the faith today and doing evangelism that people need practical tools to do it well? So, it's kind of a book in which we cover certain issues. But even those issues…Like, when we go into new thought, it's not like a chapter just on understanding it. It's more like, how do I engage my neighbors who believe this stuff, especially since this issue has been exploding on the scenes recently? And then, how do I do apologetics, say, online, for example, or in the family or in the church? It's really those two things that brought it together. So, once I figured out the topic or issue I want to cover, the question is, who is the best person who's doing this and it's not academic for them, but they can give us practical skills? Then I'd reach out to that person. And I'm pretty sure everybody said yes, or close to it.

Scott: Well, I would certainly hope so. I especially appreciate the evangelistic bend that all the chapters take. It's really helpful. And I think that's something that is maybe missing or underemphasized today, not as we do apologetics, but in a lot of other areas. The task of the Great Commission is not finished, and a big part of that is meeting some of the current apologetic challenges that are pretty significant. I mean, the headwinds are a lot stronger than I think some of our folks might realize. So, do you have a favorite chapter in this?

Sean: Oh, gosh, that's somewhat like picking a favorite kid. I guess I would say, if I had to…I didn't include a single chapter in this that I don't think is good and valuable. I would not have if it wasn't of quality. But if I had to pick one—I think my bias is going to clearly come through—it is my dad's chapter, which is number three, “A Fresh Apologetic: Relationships That Transform.” And, by the way, I've probably gotten more feedback from people on that chapter than any other chapter where people go, whoah, I didn't expect that. So, my dad is perhaps best known for his book Evidence That Demands a Verdict. And some people think if you just give the evidence and you prove something, then they'll come to faith.

Scott: It's an argument to be won.

Sean: Yeah, that's how people think about my dad and about apologetics. And he's actually saying, no, most of our beliefs are formed in relationships. So, we need to be living out our faith, we need to be in relationship with non-believers. And he kind of makes the point that if we're not in relationships with people, and we're not authentically living out our faith, then our arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. So, before we go to defend the faith, look in the mirror and say, am I living what you might call an attractive life of contentment and peace and following after Jesus that's authentic? Let's start there, and let's love our neighbors. That gives us the opportunity to speak truth into their life. So, even on my dad with debate…I think he's done a couple hundred debates with Muslims and skeptics. He said, “I wanted to defeat the arguments, but I wanted to make sure the audience knew that I genuinely loved the person I was debating against.” And so, this chapter to start the book is saying, this is all about relationships with people. And so, probably my favorite, because I really saw my dad live that out as well.

Scott: Yeah, I think that's just crucially important. Because if the goal is to win a person, not just an argument, it makes us civil, makes us respectful. It makes us show some sort of evidence that I care about you as a person. I'm not in this just to, quote, “own the atheist.”

Sean: Yeah, I think that’s right.

Scott: I want to win a person. So I think sometimes we forget that. We think our argument is gonna is going to be sufficient where, you know, I think there are people who have been argued into the kingdom of God, but they're far more that have been loved into the kingdom than argued into it.

Sean: It's usually both. It's not one or the other. I think that's the mistake that we make. So Larry Singer from, you know, one of the co founders of Wikipedia recently has this journey of just following the evidence to God, but an underlying thread in it was like, Christians who are friends of mine, Christians who acted differently online, Christians who are just intelligent, it was the way they live their lives that was as significant of a piece, maybe more than the evidence itself.

Scott: I think yeah, both of those have to go together. Because, you know, we hear students sometimes who will say, you know, I'm not wild about evangelism and converting people. I let my life do the talking. And I want to say to them, you know what, you're not that good.

Sean: [laughs]

Scott: You know, and I think we just need to be careful that sometimes our life needs interpretation, and needs explanation for why we live the way we do. It can look distinctive. But sometimes we need words to explain exactly why we live the way we do. So in my my favorite part of the book were the interviews.

Sean: Okay. Interesting.

Scott: Those were the most…I think those were incredibly insightful. And the questions you asked were really great. And so, how did you choose those interviews? Because those don't don't cover sort of run of the mill, kind of normal apologetic topics, and even the issues that you've expanded to cover. Those are really different. So, what was the rationale behind those?

Sean: Some of it was just like people like Lee Strobel, if he would give me an interview, I'd almost interview him on anything else, like I got to include Lee, because he has just such a unique perspective about culture. I want to include Jeff Myers, because he's been working with students probably in his fourth decade at Summit Ministries, such insight into students. I want to include Hillary Morgan Ferrer, because she has been working in particular has these books called Mama Bear Apologetics. And I meet these women come up and say hi, all around the country who are reading their stuff. And she's kind of spawned this movement of moms in particular, doing apologetics. So, I wanted to know, what's going on? Are there different issues that tend to motivate women? How do we motivate women? How do we incorporate women? Like, I just wanted to reach out to certain people who have a unique perspective of our cultural moment, and could give us some insights, how to do apologetics well.

Scott: I mean, I thought that one with Hillary Morgan Ferrer, that was one of the best parts of the whole book. And I think this is why our apologetics program has been much more intentional in the last decade or so about reaching women, particularly reaching moms. Because equipping moms to do apologetics with their kids, that's something I think we've overlooked in the past, and not so much anymore. And her work, I think, is so significant in that. What really struck you about that interview with her?

Sean: Oh, I think she just talked uniquely about the way women might approach apologetics differently than men do, and that women tend to be motivated relationally. So, she called it Mama Bear Apologetics. They're protecting the little ones. So, if there's a threat, and it comes from ideas and culture, then women would tend to be motivated by that and respond accordingly. So, it really, I mean…Her books have the same content other apologetics books have. There's nothing new under the sun, but if you approach it in a certain fashion, frame it in a certain way, you scratch where somebody itches—that's what she does in terms of women in apologetics, and I thought it was really eye-opening.

Scott: Yeah, that, I think, that was a really significant part. And for our viewers, if you're not familiar with the mama bear apologetics…

Sean: It’s fantastic.

Scott: That's a must read for parents with kids. And not just the young kids that the mama bear protects, but the adolescents that the mama bear is still protecting. Now, you insist that apologetics is for everyone. And I get that, because, you know, Peter says, “Always be ready to present a defense [an apologia] for the hope that's within you.” So that, I mean, I get that. But it's become, I think, more of this specialist thing, that folks like you and others who are making a living doing this, or, you know, spend a lot of time invested in producing videos and writing books and blogs and, you know, things like that. So, tell us, spell out a little bit more why you think that doing serious apologetics is for everyone. And I mean, seriously, not that you got to make a living at it, but, you know, much more than just a sentence or two to explain why you follow Christ.

Sean: At least being an apologist in some sense. So, apologetics is never listed in Ephesians or Corinthians as a spiritual gift. 1 Peter 3:15, I think is to—

Scott: I thought it was there in the original text. [laughs]

Sean: Yeah, exactly, right? 1 Peter 3:15 is, in a sense, to everyone. So, it's something we're all called to do. Now, I totally realize that I'm a professor. This is my job. I have more time. I know some people are wired more that way than other people are. So, I get that. I'm not saying everyone has to be a professional and listen to eight podcasts and read a ton of books. But the reality is, we all have people in our lives who have questions. Many people have kids who have questions about the faith. We have our own questions. And we're called to be ambassadors for Christ, ready with an answer when people ask. And it was Os Guinness who wrote in his book Fools Talk. He said, by the way, we're all apologists of something anyways. This is what social media does. We're branding ourselves. We're branding a product. He goes, what if, you know, let's just take what we're kind of doing for other means and do it more effectively for the gospel. So, that's all I mean, is I want to encourage people to say, how do we get better at asking questions? Do I just add a podcast? Maybe read a book as I can. Just move towards this being one part of discipleship, learning how to engage people better. That's all I mean.

Scott: See, and I can see the value not just for engaging people who think differently than we do, but I think the huge value is for people who have already made a commitment to follow Christ to do apologetics well, just to answer their own questions.

Sean: That's right.

Scott: And to deal with some of the doubts that they have. That's huge value, because I think that, you know, the old maxim is that, you know, the heart can't rejoice in what the mind rejects is just as true for somebody within the church as outside of it.

Sean: So, my dad wrote Evidence Demands Verdict to strengthen the church. More than a carpenter was the evangelistic version of it. I think apologetics is both of those.

Scott: So, some of the things that the book outlines are a number of different new methods for doing apologetics. And, you know, some of them I think are really forward-looking. You know, some I think are more tweaking things for a new generation.

Sean: Sure.

Scott: And, you know, we want to be careful we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. But what are some of these new methods that your authors are recommending? Because there's some really creative stuff in there.

Sean: Yeah, one of the chapters I thought was most helpful is by Allen Parr on doing apologetics online. So he does apologetics on Instagram and he's on he has a big YouTube channel. And in a sense, this is really where the apologetics task has shifted online. So, what does it look like to do this well? What are the challenges that come up? How do we create content, whether you're trying to be a full-time content creator like he is, or you're just on Twitter slash X and you're engaging people? So, that's a real practical way to do this that's new in our cultural moment. Now, Natasha Crain is my go-to person on how to do apologetics in the home. She's written I think three books specifically on this talking about how do we specifically teach apologetics to our kids. And she's kind of the guru on this. Now, we've always been teaching apologetics to our kids. But what's a game plan for really doing this today? Well, she lays that out. Derwin Gray, I asked him because he has training in apologetics. He was trained by Norm Geisler. He's a pastor of a church in South Carolina. So, I asked him, I'm like, what would it look like to do apologetics well in the church? Give us a game plan for doing this. So, there's always been the church, but we need to tweak things and do it in light of the church. The other one would be my co-author and our colleague Tim Muehlhoff, who to me…I mean, his training is in communications. And so, he has a chapter called perspective taking. So, how in conversation with people, it's a kind of apologetics. Do we really see the world as they see it? Feel the world as they feel it, so to speak? There's certain ways you can engage people better. And he lays out kind of that strategy to do it. So, those are just a few of the examples of kind of new tactics and tweaking ones that you mentioned.

Scott: Yeah, that's really helpful. I know Tim has a big emphasis in some of his other writings on perspective taking. The rule is that you don't get to critique somebody else until you have restated their position to their satisfaction.

Sean: That's right.

Scott: And then you get to do that. Once you get clarity, then to be fair to the person. And I think what it also communicates is that you're willing to listen, that we want to hear them out and to really understand their view. And I think that's very respectful, to require yourself to restate it back to them to their satisfaction. And just to make sure that they're always able to answer the question affirmatively, have I treated your view fairly? Before you offer any kind of critique.

Sean: I love that.

Scott: That's super helpful.

Sean: Tim is one of the best on communication.

Scott: All right. And this is one that I didn't see coming, but I'm so glad you included it, because we had Mike Kruger on to talk about spiritual abuse in the church. And it's one of the most insightful sessions we've had in a really long time. I'm so glad you included that, because that has a big, big impact on how we do apologetics and how we try to help people, sort of, pick up the pieces after experiencing spiritual abuse. So, what…talk to us a little bit about how spiritual abuse impacts the apologetic task, and sort of in what Mike brought out in that.

Sean: Yeah, his book, Bully Pulpit, is just fantastic. I think we interviewed him maybe two or three years ago when that first came out. And so, I interviewed him for this. And one of the points that he drew out is that so many people, when they come to hear an evangelistic message or they have a conversation with a Christian or they hear anything about the faith, they filter that through their experience with Christians. And a common experience, sadly, is many people who were in the church growing up and others who've just seen it visiting the church or maybe seen it online have seen a kind of spiritual abuse that clouds their ability, understandably, to really understand God's love and care and compassion when they've been manipulated and treated just poorly by Christians. So, one way is just to be aware of that and address that in our tone and in our content, that there's a lot of hurting people. And, of course, they're hurting from maybe moral issues in their life, but also hurting at the hands of Christians. Being aware of that and addressing that, but also be willing to talk about the kind of abuse that the church has done and not brush it aside, whether this is in sex scandals that we've heard about over the past 20 years in the Southern Baptist Church, we've heard about in the Catholic Church, we've heard about it from apologists. Not brushing this under, but just saying, hey, here's a failure that's here, and we fell short and we want to talk about this. And then, in the right way say, here's how they fell short of what the Scriptures really teach and who Jesus really was. But I haven't heard anybody talking about spiritual abuse and apologetics and given that the largest apologetics organization, Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, had a spiritual abuser at the top, something went wrong there. So, there's some big lessons we better learn and adjustments we better make.

Scott: So, if you had to summarize your advice to people when they encounter folks who have experienced spiritual abuse, before you even get to helping them reconstruct their faith, what are the non-negotiable things that have to be done with a person who has experienced this?

Sean: I think the first thing is just to try to listen and understand. Don't get defensive, don't argue them out of a position. What makes spiritual abuse so hard is because in people's minds, nobody wants to be mistreated by somebody who's in authority. But if you're a pastor or you're an apologist or you're a Christian speaker or a Christian professor, especially of like Bible and theology, in people's minds—and I'm not saying it should be this way—you're like somehow closer to God and speak for God in their minds and represent Him. You must know something I don't know. So, if you abuse your authority, and it's a spiritual authority, that does damage not only in abuse, but spiritual abuse. If I can't trust you, who else can I trust in the church? I can't trust all pastors. So, it's a slow, methodical, careful process, where we've got to just humble ourselves and listen well to abuse that's taken place and not be quick to, kind of, defend ourselves.

Scott: Yeah, I think that that task is really important. Now, we're not asking our listeners to be amateur therapists for people…

Sean: I’m certainly not. [laughs]

Scott: Or to fix the ramifications of that spiritual abuse. But it would seem to me that there has to be certain baggage that the person is just allowed to unload before you can get to anything that might look like reconstructing their faith. And I just want to be really sensitive to that. You know, we don't have to fix this, but I do think we have to be open and honest and hear their story. And I think the big thing is just to affirm that their experience is real. And to say, I've not been there myself, but I'm trying my best to understand this, but the hurt you described, I hear that as real. I accept that as the real thing and how devastating that was. And to draw them out on some of those things, not that we're asking them to relive that, but to not shy away from hearing their pain with that. I think that's to me, that's a big part of this. And that will communicate that you care, you hear them, you respect them, you love them. And then maybe, just maybe, by the grace of God, they might be open to hearing something else that might help them reconstruct their faith.

Sean: I think that's well said. I think we can't underestimate how damaging spiritual abuse can be. Look, you and I interviewed Rachael Denhollander a number of years ago. And she said in that interview, she's like, after war, sex abuse is like the second or close to that highest level of PTSD that somebody experiences. Well, if that also takes place at the hands of somebody with spiritual authority, that adds another layer to it of like, wait a minute, this is not just an “uncle,” to use the stereotype, but this is somebody in particular in authority from God who's supposed to protect me and did the opposite. That kind of damaging, we can't…It's important we don't underestimate how significant that can be in somebody's life.

Scott: Now, given that, not exclusively, but given I think that women are the ones who predominantly suffer from sexual abuse, sexual assault, let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges that we face in bringing the gospel to women. So, how is the gospel good news, particularly for women, given some of the issues that women face today? And I think some of the headwinds that we face in trying to communicate the gospel to women today?

Sean: One thing I would point out that's somewhat obvious is we're having a cultural discussion and conversation about what a woman really is. And, at the same time, we're told that the gospel is not good and Christianity is damaging to women. You can't have it both ways. So, this is the kind of point that you can gently point out and say, okay, wait a minute. The mere fact that this question is raised about how the gospel and Christianity is allegedly bad for women tells me that we do know in fact what a woman is. Now, to answer your question—

Scott: Especially for generalizing.

Sean: Yeah, and that's what happens. I've been preaching out of Acts 17 recently, where Paul goes to Thessalonica, goes to Berea, and then he focuses in on his preaching at the Areopagus in Athens. And after each city, he goes to the synagogue. And then the last one, of course, he's open air at Mars Hill. It talks about the few people that believed, and some women believed. Each time. So many of the early converts in the church were women. Now, why? Because in their sexually promiscuous, rampant patriarchal culture, Christianity comes along—and there's some difficult passages we could discuss another time—and Paul, he's like, husbands, love your wives. Be faithful to your wives. Don't be sexually immoral. Be a good father, et cetera. They found this liberating. And so, when I hear that it's bad for women, my first thought as well, clearly the first women who understood the message as it was preached by the apostles didn't get that memo. So, maybe we're not proclaiming it or living it the way we're supposed to, or maybe they're not understanding what the message is. Now, again, there's some difficult passages we could talk about in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. We won't go there. For another time. But if you just step back, and in that last chapter in the book by Jonalyn Fincher, who did the MA Phil program with me about 20-some years ago, you remember her well.

Scott: I do.

Sean: I love this chapter. This was game-changing for me. She said, "If you could," I forget the exact wording, but which great religious leader would you trust your daughter with for the day? And I thought, well, Joseph Smith, sorry.

Scott: Not so much.

Sean: No chance, not even close, the way he treated a lot of women. We don't have to go into that, but there's credible cases of this. How about Charles Taze Russell, one of the founders of Jehovah's Witnesses? He was at least accused cases of sexual abuse. How about Muhammad? No chance I trust my daughter with Muhammad for the day. Buddha, not that I wouldn't trust him, but he abandoned his family to go be enlightened. Fine. Jesus? I mean, just stop and think about that. Would you trust your wife or your daughter or your sister with Jesus for the day? Not only would I trust it, I would say, please do anything for the day. I mean, he had women followers, oftentimes in vulnerable positions, and showed nothing but grace and love and care and respect. And now, 2000 years removed, I'm sorry, Joseph Smith doesn't pass the Me Too movement. Muhammad doesn't pass the Me Too movement. Jesus still does with flying colors. And that's because, as we see in Genesis, women are made in the image of God from the side of a man which shows equality, not the head or the foot. The creation story climaxes with the creation of the woman. It's building and building. It's as if God is like, I can't do any better. And most creation accounts don't even mention the creation of the women. So, yes, again, there's some difficult passages, but those are small in light of how Jesus treated women, what the Bible says about women, how many early women convert to the faith. I think the Bible is the best news for women, period, when we understand it and proclaim it and live it properly.

Scott: I remember we had Sandy Richter on a few years ago. She's an Old Testament prof at Westmont. And I remember her saying, she was trying, she was answering the question, why does the God of the Old Testament hate women? And her point was that there were more protections in Old Testament law in ancient Israel for women and for their sexuality than there are in any major metropolitan area of the world today. Now, one of the headwinds that I think is pressing against us, particularly, maybe, in the last seven or eight years, is because of the Christian identification with abortion, and now increasingly with skepticism about IVF, it's not uncommon for women to see Christian faith as hostile to their rights, the way they view their rights over their own body and to their own reproductive freedom. So, how can we make the abortion conversation civil and not threatening to women who see the church as being—I think, particularly the Catholic church—as being so restrictive on their "reproductive rights?"

Sean: Well, one thing we cannot do is water down what the pro-life message is. And if that's offensive to men or women, I can't change that. I mean, Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away. So, there is a secular, pro-choice mindset that is in direct conflict with a biblical worldview that women and the unborn are valuable. So, one thing we can't do is kind of try to soften and avoid that. Now, how do we present it in a way that it's heard? Well, I think a few things. Number one is, we keep doing the movement in pregnancy resource centers to just love and care for women, I think, gives some power to our words. This is one of the most significant movements since Roe v. Wade over the past 50 years or so, is they've popped up everywhere, offering counseling and offering diapers and food for babies and helping women get ultrasounds. Like this—

Scott: All the stuff is not in the news.

Sean: It's not in the news. And it's provided by local people, not governments, and churches raising the funds and caring. So, I would say that that's a huge piece. The abortion conversation is perhaps the hardest topic for me to have a civil conversation with anybody. I'll fully concede that. And that's because so much is at stake. And I just get angry, to be honest, how many pro-choicers I talk to that don't steelman a pro-life position. Like you said, I'm not going to comment like Tim's advice. I'm not going to comment until I understand your position to your satisfaction. I have yet to meet a pro-choicer. I'm sure they're out there and they'll comment on me. I can say, give me the steel man pro-life position and they can lay it back to me. That doesn't happen.

Scott: Not likely.

Sean: And there's probably a ton of pro-lifers who cannot steelman the pro-choice position too. So, I'm sure that goes both ways. But I think if we are building relationships with women and in our community and when they have an unexpected pregnancy and there's a moment of crisis, would a Christian come to mind as someone who says, you know what? They're not going to be quick to judge me and shame me. They're going to love me and they're going to care for me and they're going to help me through this. Are we those kinds of neighbors? Are we in that kind of relationship with women? And I also think, just, stories and stories are powerful. People need to hear stories about people who, for example, maybe were raped and kept their child. And I've talked about this. My adopted sister, she discovered when she was a student here at 911������ that her mom was in fact date raped at 14 and kept her. That's a powerful story. So, it's a combination of building relationships, caring for people, asking questions, continuing to advance the pro-life argument, and just being present for people that if they're hurting and they're shouting, you pro-lifers are bigots and hateful and intolerant. You hate women. And it's like, we're actually living differently. Those criticisms fall on much more deaf ears, so to speak.

Scott: I think this is back to the relational part that your dad wrote about.

Sean: I think that's right.

Scott: That's, I think, connecting the dots really clearly, because if all we're going to do is return shouting at each other, we have no hope of winning a person. And I understand that there's passion on both sides of this. And I certainly, I understand your own, sort of, impatience with some of the pro-choice arguments. But I think we have to take those seriously and answer those. And I think we can do that in the context of a relationship. But it is challenging, I think, when you think about the number of unborn children who have been lost since 1973. That's a big number. That number rivals the number that were lost in the Holocaust. Now, I'm not suggesting that those are equivalent, but I think it is true that even among the social justice causes that are popular culturally, even among followers of Christ, the unborn don't often make that list of social justice causes that are close to the top. They're not even on the list in some cases. And I think that is a really troubling part of this. But I think that this is where the relational part I think is so crucial. And that's why all the stuff that the pro-life movement has done on the grassroots that nobody in the news media notices very often, unless they're out protesting at a clinic or something.

Sean: They choose not to notice and focus on it, I think is the key.

Scott: But that has done more, I think, to advocate for the unborn than probably any argument we can make. Of course, we have to make the argument that these are persons.

Sean: Of course, absolutely. Agree.

Scott: But that's, you know, I think for a long time, the pro-life movement felt like as long as you make that argument that it's killing a person, that's a drop the mic moment. And not so much because increasingly, abortion rights advocates are conceding that.

Sean: Yeah, Bill Maher did. Sure, it's a human, but too bad. I was like, okay, wow, look how far we've come.

Scott: Well, and God bless him for saying, I understand why the pro-life people are so passionate about this. He just says, I'm not.

Sean: That's right.

Scott: He just takes a very different view. Now, there are, I mean, there's just so much in here. It's really challenging to try and to narrow some of this.

Sean: Sure, yeah.

Scott: But there's a really interesting chapter that I did not see coming.

Sean: Okay.

Scott: That I found really insightful. And that's the chapter on mental health, the impact of mental health on apologetics. And that's just something I hadn't thought about much. Because, you know, if we're going to have relationships that, you know, that animate our apologetics, then the mental health stuff is, that's something we, you know, we can't not take that into account. So, how do we do that in a way that does justice to the mental health issues people face? But that doesn't become the goal in and of itself.

Sean: Two issues I think at play here. Number one is, when people are hurting and broken emotionally and mentally, it affects the way we process truth. So, a lot of mental health issues, anxiety and depression, not solely, but a lot of it stems from broken relationships with God and with others. That's kind of the root of not all of it, but a good amount of it.

Scott: Not only their own sin, but being sinned against is a, just a big part of that.

Sean: Hence, broken relationships, is kind of the root of it. Well, that's going to shape how truth lands and how we process it. We're not just objectively analyzing something like a geometry problem and then following it. Our relationships and brokenness affects it. So one of the chapters by Mark Matlock is, he argues maybe some of the move towards relativism is not people just buying ideas about truth, but the breakdown of community itself. And I think there's maybe something to that. So, the way we make arguments, the way we defend the faith, has to be done in a way with an awareness and an appropriate sensitivity to the mental health crisis moment we find ourselves in. Second, according to the recent volume three Gen Z, Barna study, it was 62 or 65 percent—roughly two-thirds of Gen Zers—said their top goal is to be happy. Number one goal. Now part of that is, many of them are not happy. But that raises interesting questions. What is happiness? What are different lies and ideas and theories about how one becomes happy, and which one is actually supported by the evidence? And our friend Henry Cloud wrote a book called I think it's just why I believe and the last third of it is, and he's a psychologist, he takes psychological principles about human flourishing, lines them up with Scripture and says guess what? If you live out, say, forgiving one another, being in relationship, like the Bible says, all of these principles about cast your anxieties upon the Lord, if you practice these principles, it shows, by secular standards, you will flourish as a human being. So, I think there's an opportunity for us in evangelism to just say to people, what are your goals in life? What do you think happiness is? How do you think you get there? What do you think about what Jesus said about happiness? And I think it's actually one of the best apologetics we have today for the faith, and I think we need to lean into it rather than leaning away from it.

Scott: Yeah I think Sean the Scripture, as you know, is very clear that the search for self-fulfillment that focuses on the self is ultimately self-defeating and it's you know it's a life that's committed to community and committed to others rather than seeking it for ourselves. Solomon describes in Ecclesiastes how he did this I mean all the things he did for himself and he looked in Ecclesiastes 2 and 3 the number of times that I, me, my, mine appears it's like in almost every sentence, and he comes to the conclusion that that's a vain pursuit and a chasing after the wind, that it doesn't ultimately accomplish what you hope to set out to do. Now, we should have Henry on by the way.

Sean: We should have him on.

Scott: To talk about that book. I've known Henry since college.

Sean: I've had him on YouTube, have not had him on our Think Biblically podcast so to speak. But the bottom line is, people who read the Bible more and who are practicing their faith, flourish more. Yeah, and this is by, like, the Harvard you know flourishment study, not some uniquely 911������ Christian study and so that's the argument we're making in the text.

Scott: Yeah, now I want to be clear for our listeners too we're not suggesting that just reading the Scripture and prayer and being involved in a church community will fix everything.

Sean: Of course.

Scott: Because some I mean some people have been sinned against so badly that it requires you know really professional help of a of a skilled therapist to work some of those things out. Now, we would encourage a therapist that is is functioning within a Christian worldview, but sometimes what we know in our head needs to get to our heart, and sometimes we've been hurt so badly that that is just what we know to be true just doesn't take residence in a more deep way and so we would I mean we and we would encourage you know sometimes that kind of trauma affects your brain chemistry too and so there are times where even medication, I think, would be totally appropriate as a way to treat some of those things.

Sean: I agree. We're body and soul but even wiring in the mind when Paul talks about you know in Romans 12:1-2 don't be conformed to this world but transformed by the renewing of your mind. Yes, drugs can play a role, and chemicals appropriately, but also biblical thinking and rewiring our thought.

Scott: So can disciplines.

Sean: It's both of those, and that's the balance we're trying to get to.

Scott: Yeah, I wonder what Paul would have said in light of the neurosciences today.

Sean: That would be fascinating to know.

Scott: Because he was maybe much more prophetic than he actually realized.

Sean: I agree.

Scott: At the time. Now, there's another another thing that I you know that I'm not sure I saw coming. Because some of some of these things when I first like this the part on abortion I thought maybe that's something we ought to just avoid talking about because that's a distraction from the gospel message. But you have a chapter on critical theory too and my initial thought when I read the table of contents was really? What on earth is that doing there, because that may be a subject that could easily be a distraction from the central components of the gospel message. So, what does critical theory have to do with apologetics, and I'm just I'm really curious to sort of the rationale for why you included that material.

Sean: So, again, remember the book is like strategies doing apologetics in the home, doing apologetics in evangelism, apologetics online, and then new issues that have arisen. This book was actually an update from a 2009 book I edited called Apologetics for a New Generation. Although critical theory was being discussed in academia then, I didn't even know what it was. If you told me critical theory, I'd be like define that for me, I have no clue. So, what Neil argues—and I think he's right—is that it's actually a different religion. It's a whole philosophy of life that is deeply embedded in our culture today and people don't even realize it. Now, it's fair to say it's a kind of neo-marxism that takes oppressor and oppressed in economics and applies it to other areas, say, race, sexuality…

Scott: Like, everything.

Sean: Yeah, fair enough, like literally everything. So, it kind of divides up the world into those who are good and those who are bad, oppressed versus oppressors, and gives a means of how to fix this problem. Now, that's a very different approach than a biblical worldview that says all have sinned and it's not about getting rid of power it's about the proper use of power before the Lord. Partly the reason I included it is, Neil Shenvi who wrote the chapter I think is probably the most outspoken and thoughtful critic of critical theory as I see it. He's written some other apologetics texts and he started to notice about five or ten years ago before it was on my radar. I wasn't seeing it how the kinds of objections that a new generation were raising were being shaped by this narrative. The kinds of objections raise the faith out of the new atheist were no longer God is evil God does exist religion does bad, it's like, white people are oppressors and if Christianity is a white man's religion I don't want anything to do with it. It's like, okay, wait a minute. That objection is getting more steam at least on the wider culture than it did in the past, and so, I think the reason to include it is I get questions I get challenges I think even a lot of Christians have been shaped more by critical theory than they realize it, so let's be aware of it and let's have some tools for engaging it in our cultural moment that is deeply shaped by this philosophy of life.

Scott: Yeah, now, of course, critical theory has its roots in post-modernism too, which has huge skepticism about the reality of truth, about universal moral standards, you know, even epistemology, what we can know, is deeply affected by the the way the critical theorists have approached this. So that calls into question some really basic things that I mean if you don't if you don't believe in the concept of truth, then I'm not sure how you communicate the gospel message to someone without doing some digging to be able to unearth some of those things. And so, I think that chapter is really helpful. There have been others that have done deeper dives into thi. Our friend Carl Truman has done a great terrific book called To Change All Worlds.

Sean: Thaddeus Williams one of our own colleagues has a great book, Confronting Injustice Without Compromising Truth.

Scott: Yeah, so, that's just a really helpful contribution. Now, I think one other question just before we wrap up here. This is you know the book it's pretty long it's got a lot of a lot of you know self-contained units you know the chapters there's a lot of material in there. A lot to digest. So tell us a little bit just be clear about how you think people can best use this themselves.

Sean: So you're right it is there's a decent number of chapters in here I forgot the total there's 23 chapters but most are about 1500 words now some are a little longer than that but I said I want you to take your best stuff and make it as concise as possible no wasted space and give us very practical tips of how to do this. So, in the first book Apologetics for New Generation someone gave me a one or two star on Amazon they're like I picked this up to answer my apologetic questions and it didn't answer any of them and I commented I said you picked up the wrong book. This book is not answering apologetic questions. It's talking about new issues that arise so we understand them and can gauge our neighbors who believe them and it's a book about strategy. So, it's more a book like, how do I practically do this from individuals who are doing it well. So, as far as using it I mean I've had a ton of apologetics classes, I've had a ton of small groups reach out to me and tell me that they use it. of course if you're an apologist and you're trying to do this I would encourage you to pick it up. I've had a lot of individuals just kind of study and work through it themselves in some ways this is getting maybe this illustration is bad but I kind of view myself as like the Nick Fury saying, all right we live in such a fractured age where we're divided, and it's like we spend so much time saying well I disagree with you I'm in a different camp even in the church. I'm trying to say you know what there's a lot of apologies we can bring together. And they might differ with each other on some issues they certainly do. But let's have a united effort to say, what are the big challenges today, how do we practically advance the ball relationally, and how do we advance the ball defending the faith in this cultural moment, what does it look like? The reason I edited it is I couldn't find any other book that focused on that and frankly some of the chapters I couldn't write. I'm like I'm not an expert on mental health, so I got Dr. Jeremiah Johnston who's written a book on the peace of God to write that chapter. Neil Shenvon critical theory. Alan Parr on doing apologetics online, et cetera. So that's the focus of the book. I haven't done any numbers, but there's probably 500 to one books answering apologetic questions to books about how to do it well so it's like tactics or end of the stalemate these are books of like how you do apologetics that's what apologetics for never changing culture is for.

Scott: So this is this is not something you would encourage our viewers to give to their non-believing friend.

Sean: I would discourage them from giving it to a non-believing friend. [laughs] But to give to a Christian a student even somebody who's seasoned is going to get I loved editing I was learning stuff these chapters going that's a great idea. I can do that better. So it's a how-to book for those who want to defend the faith do evangelism today in the culture in the home in the church that's the idea.

Scott: All right. Well, this is it's a terrific work, apologetics for an ever changing culture. Sean you've done a great job editing this. Pulled together a wonderful group of contributors. it's a really good contribution, and I think the the update from the 2009 volume it just it needed it needed updating because there's a lot of new things that come down the pike since since that originally came out so we've encouraged that for our listeners not not particularly give to your unbelieving friends, but to give to people who need to know that apologetics is for everyone and if if you know if we're to take 1 Peter 3:15 seriously to have to be able to present a defense for the hope that we have within us. There are a lot of headwinds culturally that are challenging on this, and this book will, I think, help you navigate that a little bit better. So hope you enjoyed this if you have a question or comments that you'd like to address to Sean or me email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. Give us a rating on your podcast app, please subscribe to the audio version of Think Biblically, and in the meantime, think biblically about everything. We'll see you next time.